Rally for Undocumented Immigrants’ Rights

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February 13, 2011 by The Mormon Worker

Below are my comments from a speech at a Rally for undocumented immigrants’ rights at the Utah state capital on January 24, the opening day of the Utah legislature. The rally was organized to show opposition to state representative Stephen Sandstrom’s efforts to bring a revised version of the hated Arizona anti-immigrant law, SB 1070 to Utah. We are continuing to organize on this issue as members of United For Social Justice (united4socialjustice.org). If anyone in the Salt Lake area wants to help out, let us know at themormonworker@gmail.com.

Don’t Let Utah Become Arizona!

There is a message we want to send to the lawmakers of this state. We will not tolerate Utah becoming Arizona. We will not tolerate racist laws from being passed that attack our undocumented brothers and sisters. We know that SB 1070, the racist law that was passed in Arizona, was written by executives of a private prison company. They wrote the bill knowing that the more undocumented men, women and children they can have the Arizona police throw in jail, the more profits they make.
The politicians in Arizona know that the more they promote lies, hatred, and racism against undocumented immigrants, the higher they can climb in the ranks of the Republican party, and the more campaign donations they will receive.

SB 1070 in Arizona is nothing more than a scheme by a large corporation and colluding politicians, to make money and gain power at the expense of the most vulnerable and poor members of our society. And we won’t accept this same law coming to Utah, which is what Representative Sandstrom’s proposed immigration law would do.

We won’t accept the senseless imprisonment of our undocumented immigrant brothers and sisters, which would be the result of such a law. We won’t accept that tax money will be wasted enforcing such a law. We won’t accept that immigrants, both those with documents, and those without, will be racially profiled and harassed based on the color of the skin, or the accent they speak with, which would also be the result of such a law.

Not only will we not accept the passage of this new racist law, we will also not accept the current status quo with regard to immigration. We will not accept the ICE raids in the middle of the night that take mothers and fathers away from their children. We will not accept deportations, which separate families. We will not accept the slave like work conditions that many undocumented workers endure, so that big business can have cheap labor and bigger profits. We won’t accept that undocumented immigrants are scapegoated and blamed for the economic problems that are a result of capitalism and the greed of America’s financial elite.

Instead of the status quo, we are demanding legalization for our undocumented brothers and sisters. Undocumented immigrants are good, hard working people who are just trying to support their families. Legalization would give them a way to fully contribute to our society. It would allow them to pay their full share of taxes and buy healthcare. It would give them the ability to form unions, and demand better working conditions and wages, not only for themselves but for all American workers. It will allow them to come out of the shadows and be recognized for the contributions they make to building America.

If we fail to oppose racism, bigotry and we will be failing in our duty as Christians. Undocumented immigrants are the most vulnerable and weak among us. They are the least of these our brethren. How we treat them will help determine whether we Mormons in Utah can be counted as true disciples of Christ or not.

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39 thoughts on “Rally for Undocumented Immigrants’ Rights

  1. RN says:

    Excellent! Thank you for voicing the opinion of I hope many so well.

  2. Forest Simmons says:

    Amen!

  3. Cabinessence says:

    I’m all for illegal immigrants rights, which would be the right be treated like a human being while being shipped back to their own country where they can wait to enter the country legally like everyone else. Perhaps your energy would be better spent supporting movements that would Mexico a better place. The solution you have seems to me, incredibly unsustainable.

  4. billy yank says:

    Illegals are fellons, just being here. Send them back to their countries.

  5. Carrie says:

    Undocumented workers should not have any rights, they need to come into this country legally, or don’t come in at all. You should put more of your energy and focus on workers and union rights instead of someone breaking the law.

    • J. Madson says:

      FYI, Carrie our constitution guarantees rights to everyone regardless of citizenship.

      • Ken Meyer says:

        J. Madison

        A more pertinent “FYI”; our constitution most emphatically does *NOT* “guarantee” the “right” to be in this country for anyone who entered it illegally….or they’re having a “right” to engage in any other illegal activity either. And bear in mind that *ANY* activity those who have entered this country illegally perform while in it is, by definition, also illegal.

        Now, if *YOU* think their rights as NON-citizens have been limited in some fashion in this country, then perhaps *YOU* ought to consider how their simply BEING HERE is an abuse of the rights of those of *US* who have a LEGITIMATE reason for residing in the U.S…..especially those of us who *ARE* the nation’s citizens. And THEN perhaps you should consider restoring some TRUE rights; i.e. – the rights of citizens to enjoy the security of their own nation. But that, of course, would involve you supporting the LAW! Wouldn’t want you to venture too far down that ethical road now, would we? [smile]

      • J. Madson says:

        Yes Ken you are a victim here. Yes people that are undocumented all commit illegal activity (your legal acumen is impressive). They are illegally breathing, eating, sleeping.

  6. Ken Meyer says:

    Referencing the author’s comment of

    “…at the expense of the most vulnerable and poor members of our society”

    …to which I would pose the question: “Our society? O U R society????”

    Now, while they may be a part of HIS society, they are most definitely NOT a legitimate part of MY society, nor the rest of a nation’s society that supports law and ethics.

    Bear in mind that we’re not talking simply of “undocumented”, but people who KNOWINGLY crossed our borders contrary to the law. They are quite matter-of-factly ILLEGAL aliens and have no legitimate place in “our” society whatsoever…except, perhaps, as invaders and recognized criminals.

    Now, if the author wants to support ’em, then let him do so on his OWN hook, and leave the rest of us (the “our” in your comment) out of it. This country has had enough of parasites and criminals…and the LAST thing WE need to do is add “OUR” support to their activities.

    • J. Madson says:

      Glad to see tribalism is alive and well. For many of us, our common humanity is enough to compel us to want to love and take care of the least. The fact that you do not see them as part of your society is precisely the problem. These people are part of your society whether you recognize it or not. These are your brothers and sisters and instead you label them as invaders, criminal, and parasites. I am always amazed at the sheer amount of hate and vitriol that people exhibit on immigration issues. Stay classy Ken.

      • Ken Meyer says:

        I “label them as invaders, criminal, and parasites” because that is EXACTLY what they are…no more, and certainly no less. And, if they choose to disregard the laws of the land, then I can’t for the life of me see how they are my “brothers and sisters”; “brothers and sisters” don’t abuse society’s hospitality as these (using the words again) invaders, criminals, and parasites do.

        Again, if *YOU* want to support them, then*YOU* go right ahead. Meanwhile, why don’t *YOU* stop showing the “amount of hate and vitriol” *YOU* seem to have toward decent society generally; you know, those who *DO* recognized the efficacy of law and ethics. But please don’t pretend that you are somehow better than the rest of us simply because *YOU* choose to impose the costs of *YOU* peculiar feelings about the “rightness” of illegality on the rest of us; you know, those of us who SUPPORT the law instead of thumbing our noses at it.

  7. tariq says:

    Ken,
    The parable of the Good Samaritan makes it clear beyond any doubt that as far as Jesus is concerned, outsiders are just as much our brothers and sisters as insiders are, regardless of borders,traditions, social customs or man-made laws. Still, I doubt that you are really that angry about people breaking the law. Do you feel that people who drive 60 mph on a 55mph road should be utterly denied all rights and cast out of our society? They are law breakers too. Heck, this country was founded by law breakers. George Washington’s actions leading the Continental Army were not only illegal, they were acts of outright sedition according to the laws of the land at the time. But let’s be honest, you don’t really care about the law any more than I do. You’re just mad because you hate and fear people with dark skin and foreign accents, period. If you are a bigot, just admit it, but don’t think you are fooling anyone by hiding your prejudice behind the mask of your false gods “Law and Order”. Also, I fail to see how illegally crossing a border and getting a low-wage, hard labor job that makes the lives of citizens easier is “abusing society’s hospitality.” If anything, society is abusing undocumented immigrants by taking advantage of immigrants’ down-and-out situations to get them to work for less than they deserve. Your generalizations about immigrants are incredibly silly. Something tells me you watch alot of FOX News.

    • Ken Meyer says:

      Tariq;

      Do I feel that “…people who drive 60 mph on a 55mph road should be utterly denied all rights and cast out of our society?” Answer: depends…were they actually a LEGITIMATE part of our society to begin with? If not – as in the case of “illegal aliens” – then I think they should be given the EQUIVALENT respect for their “rights” as they gave those of our society when they chose to disregard it’s laws and ethics….and that does NOT include allowing them to continue illegally IMPOSING themselves on OUR (not their) society.

      As for my alleged fearing “dark skin” and “accents”, do you know who you’re speaking to? Or are you basing your presumptions on YOUR prejudices and and YOUR wish to discriminate against those who BELIEVE in upholding the law…and NOT allowing those who would wish to tear down this society. Do you think the law-abiding are only light-skinned? Do you think that only those who’s linguistic abilities are limited to “American” recognize a responsibility to the law? If so, might I suggest that you get YOUR prejudices (and obvious ignorance!) under control?

      As for your failure “to see how illegally crossing a border and getting a low-wage, hard labor job that makes the lives of citizens easier is ‘abusing society’s hospitality’.”, perhaps you could “see” it better if it was put in terms of someone illegally crossing the borders of YOUR property and abusing YOUR “hospitality” directly…say taking YOUR job, trashing YOUR house, perhaps abusing YOUR spouse and/or kids. Think you you would “fail to see” that as an abuse of YOUR “hospitality” then, perhaps? Think that abuse would make YOUR “life easier”? In other words, what I’m suggesting is that you make free with your OWN hospitality all you like…but DON’T presume to impose YOUR selfish desires on the rest of us. You see, there are those of us who don’t cotton to subsidizing the self-centered, unreasonable desires of of others…particularly when those desires are criminal in nature.

      As for your contention that perhaps “society is abusing undocumented immigrants by taking advantage of immigrants’ down-and-out situations to get them to work for less than they deserve”, then let’s just STOP such abuse right now…and get the “undocumented immigrants” (yeah right…read CRIMINAL INVADERS) out of the country so that they will NOT be abused anymore. Problem solved!!! You see, if they don’t “deserve” to “work for less” here, then let ’em go back to their OWN country and work for what they actually DO “deserve” there…at least until such a time as they choose to attempt to ACTUALLY “immigrate”…LEGALLY! Sound like a plan?

      As you can see, I’m getting a bit sick of those who apparently think of themselves as “Good Samaritans” when they’re actually nothing more than “gimme, gimme” artists who constantly demand that OTHERS provide what they, themselves, won’t.

      Now, if YOU want to behave as what *YOU* think a “Good Samaritan” should behave in this instance, then *YOU* provide the jobs and other sustenance these illegals are sopping-up, while recognizing that a TRUE “Good Samaritan” is one who does NOT selfishly impose his/her will on OTHERS.. Think you can do that?

      For the most part, our laws aren’t arbitrary or capricious; there is a purpose behind them. If you can’t respect our laws, then you do understand, don’t you, how the responsible among us would, in turn, have a little difficulty respecting someone such as yourself.

      Might I suggest that you take examine your OWN heart and make note of the prejudices and selfish willingness to impose yourself on others found there which you’ve displayed in your response to me? I make that suggestion because it doesn’t appear that, until you do, you’re in any position to make moral and/or ethical judgments concerning others.

      • J. Madson says:

        “Might I suggest that you take examine your OWN heart and make note of the prejudices and selfish willingness to impose yourself on others found there which you’ve displayed in your response to me? I make that suggestion because it doesn’t appear that, until you do, you’re in any position to make moral and/or ethical judgments concerning others.”

        Ken thanks for this final paragraph. After making some of the more bigoted moral and ethical judgments I have seen, you write this. If you want to add something substantive other than your bigoted rants feel free. Otherwise, no one really cares to hear from you.

      • tariq says:

        Yeah right. You’re just a bigot, plain and simple. Jesus never said, “love your neighbor unless they don’t have papers, in which case it’s ok to persecute and despise them.” As for respecting “our laws,” they aren’t my laws and I don’t care about them at all. Any law that criminalizes a human being simply for walking over some imaginary line drawn by coercive institutions is illegitimate as far as I’m concerned. Anti-immigrant legislation is just as ridiculous to me as past laws that enforced racial segregation.

        If you have a problem with illegals “sopping up” jobs, then maybe your problem is with the capitalist system. That’s the free market; pay workers as little as possible to maximize profits. If, due to dire circumstances, undocumented immigrants are willing to work for less money than citizens, then the free market says, hire undocumented immigrants. That’s just capitalism. Sounds to me like you are just playing into the capitalists hands by misdirecting your anger down the social hierarchy towards the easiest targets (poor immigrants who don’t have the means to defend themselves), rather than directing your anger up the hierarchy towards the people who are doing the real damage in the world. I get it. I practice martial arts. I know that it is easy to kick someone who is already down, but don’t kick someone who is down and then try to play it off like you’re some American hero standing up for LAW and ETHICS. Your just a white supremacist kicking people who are already beaten up because you are either too deluded or too cowardly to stand up to actual bad guys.

      • Ken Meyer says:

        First, to “Tariq”;

        I just LOVE the way you make declarative statements without the slightest elements of information to back them up. Again, you don’t know the color of my skin, nor my language skills, etc. In your ignorance, you simply make broad assumptions…assumptions, I might add, that are quite wrong, both generally and in specifics.

        As for your reference to Jesus, perhaps you forgot that, beyond speaking of “love thy neighbor” (which is NOT particularly appropriate to the topic at hand) he also chose to chase the moneychangers out of the Temple (which *IS* much closer to the topic at hand). Surely you don’t propose to set forth that Jesus supported the POSITION of the “moneychangers”, do you? I ask because, in all of Jesus’ ministry, while I recall him loving the sinner (as well as one’s neighbor) don’t remember him as advocating the SIN…or supporting the commission of those sins. Again, do you? And didn’t heat one time or another say something about “render[ing] unto Caesar what is Caesar” or some such? In any case, let me again point out that your own heart seems so burdened that you’re far from capable of making ethical judgments of others. In short, get off your high horse, “Tariq”; it’s not a particularly becoming position for you.

        Now, to “J. Madison” and his “thanks”. Sorry if you, yourself, are incapable of responding to logical arguments with anything more “substantive” than derogatory characterizations. Guess if can’t speak intelligently on a subject, you might as well retreat as gracelessly as possible, ‘eh? Beyond that, since when did *YOU* become the arbiter of society’s wants and desires generally? Who made *YOU* “the Boss”? I’m referencing here, of course, your claim that “Otherwise, no one really cares to hear from you”. Kinda’ setting yourself as a presumptive little snot, aren’t you there, fella’?…particularly when you’re making such a comment in the context of calling someone ELSE a “bigot”. [smile…can someone say “irony”?]

      • tariq says:

        Sure thing, “Ken” (I’m not sure why you put my name in quotation marks). If you don’t see how “love thy neighbor” relates to how we should treat our undocumented brothers and sisters (and yes, they certainly are our brothers and sisters whether you like it or not), then all I can do is sigh. You just go on thinking whatever Glenn Beck’s chalkboard tells you to think and hating whoever it tells you to hate.

      • J. Madson says:

        Ken

        you havent offered anything logical to respond to. And so we are clear, my comment has nothing to do with society at large. Im sure you can find many people that agree with you. I am speaking as to this little blog community where no one agrees with you and find your statements bigoted. Its one thing to discuss immigration policy versus your scapegoating and bigoted statements towards a group of people. No one cares to hears your bigoted statements. We see immigrants as our brothers and sisters deserving a certain amount of compassion, charity, and respect and you dont.

    • Ken Meyer says:

      Tariq;

      Again, you’re not really the person to “sigh”, are you? Or to question how OTHERS relate to that which you obviously have no connection yourself.

      You, sir/madam/whatever the case may be, are a TRUE bigot. You make judgments based on absolutely no knowledge of the subject (witness your earlier tirade as to my status), and insist on claiming that I *DO* hate…without my even ONCE claiming I “hated” any individual whatsoever. Get this, guy; what *I’m* advocating is adherence to a reasonable, responsible law….by those it’s applicable to. Is asking for adherence to the law your definition of “hate”? Do you think that compliance with the commonly arrived at “good” is “hateful”???? I don’t. You, on the other hand, seem to be advocating SCOFFING at the law our society ACTING IN COMMON came to frame. Just who is expressing “hate” under those terms? I’d submit that, between the two of us, it most assuredly isn’t me.

      Sorry, guy, but those who choose to show contempt for the legitimately arrived-at laws of the land – laws their actual “brothers and sisters” framed – are the ones who are “hateful” in my book. And they most assuredly are NOT the ones who are in a position to dictate to their “brothers and sisters” what’s right or wrong. You get the beam out of your own eye, THEN perhaps you can discuss the moats in others. Get the picture?

      Again, might I suggest you get off your high horse? Take my word for it “Tariq”; seeing one inflicted with your particular version of moral turpitude trying to take a position there is not a pretty site.

      • tariq says:

        Ken, the funniest part of your last comment is that you are completely oblivious to the irony. You are telling me to get the beam out of my eye before I discuss the moats in others after you just made all those comments vilifying millions of people who you’ve never even met as “invaders, criminals, and parasites.” All I can do is sigh… and laugh.

        Well, go ahead, what else did Glenn Beck’s magic chalkboard tell you to think?

  8. Ken Meyer says:

    Tariq;

    Sure, “Tariq”, sure. I’m “vilifying millions of people”…who have done absolutely nothing wrong. And I’ve never met any of ’em. Gotcha’.

    As for your claim that “all [you] can do is sigh…and laugh”….well, I don’t doubt that for a minute. After all, you strike me as the type of individual who, in terms of a making a positive contribution to society, is capable of little else.

    Now why don’t you go sit in your corner twiddling your parasitical [remember…”all [you] can do is smile…and laugh”] thumbs and make your uninformed Olympian presumptions, leaving the serious business of the world to those who have the integrity and sense of responsibility to deal with it.

    -Ken-

    • tariq says:

      You absolutely are vilifying millions of people. There are millions of undocumented immigrants in this country, and you made some pretty angry, bigoted, ignorant, sweeping generalizations about them, and yes, I’m quite confident that there are millions of undocumented immigrants who you have never met and know nothing about.

      And yeah, I’m sure you are just bursting with “integrity and sense of responsibility”. Keep talking though. The more you say, the worse you make the anti-immigrant right look, and that certainly is a positive contribution to society.

      Sigh and laugh…

  9. Ken Meyer says:

    Tariq;

    Grin….get cut a little close to the bone there, did ya’ guy?

    Look, I didn’t make you who and what you are, nor am I responsible for what you turned out to be. That’s your problem; I’m afraid you’re just gonna’ have to learn to live with it. In that, you have my sympathy.

    Anyway, have a good one…..

    -Ken-

    • Joseph says:

      I’m gonna have to echo Tariq, Ken. Your comments have become less and less rational. This to me indicates that you have nothing substantial to argue. And my nine-year-old can write more coherent sentences than you seem to be able to write.

      In terms of “parasites,” the most dishonest, corrupt, backstabbing, freeloading, greedy, abusive people I have known have been right-wing nuts who rant and rave about “immigrants.”

      No, Ken, I don’t know you, but I know your rhetoric. I’ll just hope your ignorance is sincere, as it is in many, and not an indication of the vindictiveness I’ve experienced in too many others recently.

    • Iamdavid says:

      I think I got a line on Ken Meyer. Probably Cabinessence we have so often seen, ranting along the lines of the tea-bag swamp he belongs. You are a pit of pride from whence there is no return. Your boastfulness delivers the simple message of hate and disgust. Probably some result of your longterm unemployment and pent-up aggression towards human beings, in general. Get a better hold on yourself!

      • Ken Meyer says:

        -Iamdavid-

        Yep…guess you got it right, didn’t you?!? Have to commend you on the application of superior intelligence in the way you reached your “probably” and how you took care not to be a presumptuous little snot yourself [smile…a little sarcasm there]

        What is it with you clowns? Are you all reading from the same dog-eared script, all intent on using the same “in” words like some junior high clique? Isn’t there one among you who is capable of THINKING and, every once in a while, expressing his OWN concepts instead of simply regurgitating the Pablum your “fertile” little brains have been “nourished” on?

        Notice the responses to me so far; NO ONE seems to have been capable of attacking the logic (or even the premise) of what I’ve maintained…but there seems to be a whole bunch of “open-minded” (yes, I *AM* being sarcastic again!) individuals ready to yell “rant” and “Teabagger”, etc at the drop of a hat, and ready to make silly-assed assumptions without the slightest hint of evidence to back them up. Is that what it’s like in your world? I can tell you that, on entering it from this side, one feels like the Luke Wilson character in the film “Idiocracy”.

        “Special” you may be…but get a clue, guys! At some point in your life or another, you SHOULD attempt to grow-up! And tight-fisted adherence to ignorance and prejudice just isn’t going to cut it in this day and age.

        Now that you’ve endured my little homily, why don’t at least ONE of you attempt to LOGICALLY inform me as to just how individuals entering our country illegally is a GOOD thing and why that type of illegal entry should not only be condoned, but also promoted. Then inform me how, if it *IS* a good thing, how *YOU* plan to sell that idea to your fellow citizens and/or justify your disregard of the law your fellow citizens, acting in a democratic manner, arrived at. Finally, please tell me how, if the majority of your fellow citizens happen not to agree with you, in what ways YOU are prepared to absorb any expenses (of whatever type) yourself, without imposing an undue burden on the majority who did not choose to go down your path….and PLEASE don’t make the assumption along the way that you’re speaking for EVERYONE when you know damned well that you aren’t.

        Believe me…even a few sentences of REASONABLE response along those lines would be worth thousands of the vocalized presumptions and sloganeering which seem to define the limits of expression of clowns like “Tariq”, “J. Madson”, “Iamdavid”, “Joseph”, and such.

        Any takers? Or is there simply going to be more closing-the-circle of the “open-minded” (yep, there’s that sarcasm again!) Mormon Worker “brain trust”?

  10. Iamdavid says:

    Fine then, little child. You seem to be the greatest writer (and thinker) of all time. You are “luke”, and everyone else is dumb. Now, perhaps we may move onto the part, where you put yourself above all others, draw the lines where certain individuals may or may not go, maybe even pretend to be King for a day. Can you even grasp the concept of free agency? Do you know how important it is, in life and the hereafter?

    No-one here has closed any “circle” over you. Although my beliefs shall remain long after you have perished, it is certainly your World in which you desire to hold the rest of us, in captivity. Without any hint of any possible freedom or rest, you would like people around you to believe, this planet should be ruled with your rod of iron. You, “sport”, are the little “snot”. It’s all good, though! I think you draw the attention needed towards debate, forgiveness, and the ability to understand…and move on. Please. Are you O.K.? Or, are you just here for the flogging of the Mormons?!?

  11. Ken Meyer says:

    Imdavid;

    Nope, I’m no special writer, nor an especially deep thinker Nor, for that matter, do I think of myself as the “greatest” in any particular endeavor at all. It’s only in comparison with people such as yourself that I happen to look good in those respects.

    Beyond that, nobody is holding you in “captivity” at all. Far from it! If you want to get the h_ll out of here, then be my guest. I can tell you that, most assuredly, the LAST thing RESPONSIBLE people want is to keep – captive or not – those like YOU around! Boats trying escape the storm tend to want to CUT their anchors; not be dragged down into the depths by them.

    As for “forgiveness”….well, I suggest you re-read your posts and see just how much “forgiveness” you’ve expressed in them. Or how much room for individual expression you make allowances for, either.

    I’m not out to “flog Mormons”. But I’m more than willing to go up against those who abuse and feed off of society without giving anything commensurate in return. But then I’m reminded that “no one really cares to hear from [me]”…and I realize that self-appointed saints such as yourself aren’t inclined to listen to begin with, let alone base reasonable responses to what you’ve heard and/or read.

    In that vein, I note that once again, you appear incapable of framing a reasonable response to the issues I raised. What a SURPRISE!!! You’d think that someone who was so sure of his so-called “beliefs” could at least EXPRESS those beliefs in a somewhat logical manner. Apparently not. Or perhaps you’re waiting divulge them in the “hereafter”?

    Now, why don’t you duck back into the narrow confines of that closed “brain trust” circle “Imdavid”; looks to me like you need all the protection the conceptually-closed walls that group has to offer.

    Have a good one!

    -Ken-

    • Iamdavid says:

      Dear Ken,

      You are hopeless, and I for one, like that! I am not, nor is anyone else, herein, your enemy. It has only come to pass, that while you have pushed your agenda down everyone’s throat, you have refused to become any part of the “civilized” debate. It is all or nothing. You are the devinity, going around telling (not suggesting) everyone lay down their arms and submit to your beliefs.

      What great contribution/s are you speaking of, when you say things, such as ” I’m not out to “flog Mormons”. But I’m more than willing to go up against those who abuse and feed off of society without giving anything commensurate in return.” You do not know me. Yet you cast ass-perssions? You seem to be taking part in some form of protecting that which you and yours believe. That’s all fine and good. I don’t think I have put you down, and I honor your determination. I just can’t quite get my head around exactly what it is you seem to be getting at. You really haven’t contributed much towards that end. Please. If you have a question in the form of anything resembling properness and respectfulness, ask of it. Real people are out here, who may be able to subjectively rest your soul, or maybe even entertain the idea of true dialogue.

      Again, I didn’t start this thread. Just became a part of what we Americans could all agree on, as heated debate over something which will come to pass until the next arises. We are lucky enough to have such niceties. We should strive to arrive at somewhere in between, rather than, to kill the messenger/s who are really so small, after all, in this World.

  12. J. Madson says:

    I put Ken’s comments in moderation. If anyone feels like I should set them free and wants the back and forth banter with Ken, let me know.

    I generally dont moderate comments except for a few death threats last year, but dont really want to blog to devolve into name calling (and yes im sure Ive done my fair share of that)

    • Iamdavid says:

      I, for one, am sorry for that, J.

      It’s too bad some of us can’t seem to get along whilst we play. Innywayzzzz. Sorry y’all for my own playful and somewhat rude behaviour. Really.

      • Joseph says:

        J.,

        I think Ken was able to speak his peace. It is important to value dissenting opinions, but those opinions can be shared respectfully.

        No one’s free speech is curtailed, since there is plenty of space on the Internet for those individuals like Ken who want to rant in a mean-spirited way.

        And this is a good reminder to be careful of my own name-calling. I view verbal violence as just as bad, if not worse, than physical violence. For some reason it’s easier to fall into and then get away with, however.

  13. David says:

    so, who where illegals first, who broke the law first, just to remind you, when Mormons enter to the Salt Lake in 1847, these lands where Mexican territories….

    • Cabinessence says:

      how does that piece of trivia change the debate though? It’s an entirely different set of circumstances than the present… (how many Mexican nationals were living in Utah in 1847? 2?) It was all part of the land grabbing process that ensued post Christopher Columbus… things are a bit more established now. Righting ancient historical “wrongs” to which the supposed victims are long dead and buried is a pointless exercise.

  14. Cabinessence says:

    Is unfettered immigration sustainable while maintaining societal/national integrity? No. If you understand that and youre still for unfettered immigration than leave any reference to the United States constitution out of your comments, because your intended purpose is obviously to destroy the national/societal integrity of the United States of America. That’s a hard sell right there. Which is why most of you beat around the bush on the issue. Come right out and say what your purpose is and how you think it will actually work. Also if you can debate with it invoking WWJD I won’t reference the Church Handbook of Instructions.

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